How Architects Are Redefining Beauty Brands Through Design, Storytelling, and Intentional Restraint

What happens when two architects trade master plans for makeup counters and fragrance labs? We sit down with Bradley and Jonina Skaggs of Skaggs Creative to unpack how an agency born from architecture school, 3D CAD, and a NASA virtual tour evolved into a studio shaping some of beauty’s most memorable brands. From Estée Lauder to Diptyque and Charlotte Tilbury, they reveal the strategy behind packaging that feels inevitable and photography that turns a single object into a world.

We dive into why differentiation beats imitation, especially in a market flooded with “clean” and “green” claims that no longer separate anyone. Their process starts with clarity: align positioning and messaging, surface what truly makes a product different, and translate that into a visual system that customers grasp in seconds. AI now accelerates research, but craft still rules—sketch before software, build prototypes, and use typography and hierarchy to direct the eye. The pair explains how they sell bold ideas by listening first, tying creative choices to client pain points, and presenting both what’s asked for and what’s actually needed.

Their architectural mindset shows up everywhere: products treated like little buildings, light sculpting form in stills, and packaging engineered with the realities of materials, ink, and supply chains. We talk custom primary packaging, the value of staying small and fast, and why the right printer is a strategic partner, not a line item. Along the way, you’ll hear candid takes on social media’s pull toward sameness, the power of founder truth, and the patience required to build brands that outlast trends.

If you care about brand identity, packaging design, product photography, and the intersection of AI with timeless craft, this conversation is a field guide to standing out without shouting. Enjoyed the episode? Follow, share with a creative friend, and leave a quick review to help more listeners find the show.

Transcript

Meet Skaggs Creative

Voice Over 0:00

This is iDesign Lab, a podcast where creativity and curiosity meet style and design. Curator of interiors, furnishings, and lifestyles. Hosted by Tiffany Woolley, an interior designer and a style enthusiast, along with her serial entrepreneur husband Scott. iDesign Lab is your ultimate design podcast where we explore the rich and vibrant world of design and its constant evolution in style and trends. Today on iDesign Lab, we're joined by Bradley and Joinia Skaggs, founders and creative directors of Skaggs Creative, the agency behind some of the most refined brands in beauty, fragrance, and hospitality. Trained as architects in Europe and guided by form, follows function and less is more, Skaggs designs brands from the inside out, shaping not just how they look, but how they're remembered.

TIffany Woolley 0:55

Welcome to the iDesign Lab Podcast. Today we're joined remotely by the design duo behind Skaggs Creative. We'd like to welcome Bradley and Yonina Skaggs to the podcast today. Would you introduce yourselves to our listeners?

unknown 1:18

Sure.

Scott Woolley 1:19

Tell us a little about yourselves. Because you have an interesting story. You're originally from Germany, correct? And started in architecture.

SPEAKER_05 1:27

Oh, uh I'm originally from Iceland, but then I studied Germany. And um then I lived in Luxembourg with Bradley for three years, and then we moved to San Francisco, and now we're here in New York.

TIffany Woolley 1:44

Amazing, cross-country and from Europe too. So tell us where your love for being creative and obviously design was really introduced and what set the tone for your career.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

So we both we both met in architecture school, and therefore design was a part of both of our lives, I think, before we met. Yeah. Uh certainly crystallized in architecture school. And then uh the the agency was born out of kind of uh necessity in a way, because Yanina was finishing her master's or MFA and uh freelancing and had a ton of work. And I was an architect then, but I was doing a lot of work in the early days of 3D CAD.

TIffany Woolley 2:33

Okay.

From Europe And Architecture To Agency

SPEAKER_03 2:34

And uh it led to a project with NASA to do a virtual tour of their 10 facilities in the US and take that as a web experience. And so with her doing her master's degree and me doing that, it was like we just the agency kind of formed out of that. So it's just always been our thing.

Scott Woolley 2:55

So your architectural was more in uh commercial?

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Yeah, it was uh at least there in Europe, it was more urbanism and planning in in California and San Francisco. It was I worked for a firm that did a lot of work in Silicon Valley with tech companies.

TIffany Woolley 3:11

What a great time to you know come alive into that background, you know, the design world, so much, so much innovation.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

Yeah, and it was right during the dot-com boom that totally started and blew up. And uh it was a pretty exciting time down there. But obviously, in that part of the world, everything revolves around tech. And uh at least in California, there was a good food and wine aspect to it too. But it was New York when we moved here that we really got into more hospitality, and that led us into beauty. And beauty's been our sweet spot for 15 so less years.

Scott Woolley 3:48

But you you mentioned NASA, so you were doing you said 3D, or what was it you were doing for NASA?

SPEAKER_03 3:55

So it was the project to uh I have two friends who wrote a grant, and it was to do a virtual tour of all 10 NASA facilities and then build a web experience where you could tour them. And it was the time when quick time VR had come out where you can stitch together a set of photos to build a reality you could pan around in. And um they were both uh scientists and had started to develop a curriculum around it for children to teach in schools. But you could basically navigate it by different like uh topic, by location, or by right.

NASA Virtual Tours And Early Digital Work

Scott Woolley 4:33

That's interesting. Uh what what period of time was that where you were doing that work? What years? Oh, it was the reason the reason the reason the reason why I asked, because I'm gonna say it was the early 2000s, my company, we were doing a lot of work for NASA, but really up at uh Cape Canaveral doing the films and so forth for the visitor center uh there. And then we were we were doing a lot of sort of documenting a lot of the NASA, like they had an area up at Cape Canaveral called the graveyard, which had all the old structures and things from you know the past 10, 15 years space mission.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Yeah, I think we shocked that actually. What's that? I think we shocked that as part of the whole process because uh we we did all of them. But you could you know you could be inside labs, you could be inside simulators, you could be inside topic cashes, you could be all kinds of places. But it was right around that period of time because it we were just ready to launch it and then 9-11 happened and it it never saw the lighting day.

Scott Woolley 5:41

Really? All that work. So you you end up you end up you end up living two years to do it.

TIffany Woolley 5:49

Two years. Does it live in infamy somewhere on a hard drive? Yeah, it got on a hard drive in the U.S.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Maybe someday uh it would be fun to bring it back given what technology is today and what you could probably do as well.

TIffany Woolley 6:09

Right, exactly. It would be. It really would be. And just to see how far things have come. And I I think what I find so fascinating is that you started with such an architecture background, obviously, which is a love of design and creativity. And you, as your creative process has evolved, you've gone all the way to like photography and product development, which is part of like Scott's passion world. How did that pivot come about?

SPEAKER_05 6:43

Asta Lauder. We yeah. We then hired by Aston Lauder to do their uh fragrance. Well, as of no prestige fragrance, yeah. And as of no, they I mean, if it's Tommy Hilfinger or DKNY, we did uh Tom Ford. Uh Michael Cordhorts, sorry. And uh none of them are involved with the process, they just license their name and then they make the juice, and then we have to create the story around it. And we did that for a lot of fragrances that you know today. Um so that was sort of the pivot point.

Scott Woolley 7:26

Um But you you moved to New York and you're architects, correct? Yeah. So we at what point did you realize, or how did you go from uh being an architect to designing you know, brands and ad campaigns and packaging?

TIffany Woolley 7:42

So I mean they do go hand in hand.

Scott Woolley 7:45

Was there someone you met you bumped into? Was there someone came to you and how do you jump from one to the other?

SPEAKER_03 7:52

It it happened because uh Yumina finished school and really didn't like being an architect.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

Okay, for three years practicing.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

And uh we were living in Luxembourg then, and there was a uh guy who I was working for. We shared a space and they did this this art publication of the Luxembourg art scene, and they produced a little monthly guide, and they needed somebody to help them lay it out. And Yonina was like, I'll try it. And she's like, I really love this. This is this is this is graphic design, this is what I want to do. So that's what she went back and did her MFA in. And for me, with the downstairs thing and the digital part, it was something I just loved, and they they kind of just all dovetailed together. So, yes, in the beginning, Skags was very much a graphic design shop, but as we grew and had different clients, especially when we got to New York, like she was saying about Estate Water, it started to evolve more into uh storytelling and branding and then make your film packaging, the auto packaging.

Scott Woolley 8:55

So you so you go from an architect to graphics design. Who was like your first client that you got you?

SPEAKER_05 9:02

Microsoft.

Dot‑Com Era To New York Hospitality

Scott Woolley 9:03

Microsoft. So you so you're talking a big, a major company. Yeah. So did you do branding for them? Did you do packaging for them?

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Um they had a product, this was way back when it's here. It was called Replay TV, and it was a predecessor to the TV.

TIffany Woolley 9:18

Oh yeah, I remember that. I do remember Replay TV.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Yeah, it's a predecessor to TiVo and all of that.

TIffany Woolley 9:22

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

We were we did something on that project, the packaging for it, the instructions, everything. Giveaways, everything. Just self-contact.

Scott Woolley 9:34

But I have to ask, how did you get awarded a project like that? Did you have a contact at Microsoft?

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Well, I think like everything in life is who you know.

TIffany Woolley 9:42

It's all who you know, right? Isn't that the truth?

SPEAKER_03 9:46

So we had a there's a woman that she went to run buffet with who got a job there, and that's how we got pulled into it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:52

What a wild web TV. I mean, but it's also replay too.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

TIffany Woolley 9:59

It's to it's wild to me that you go from something, you know, Microsoft, which is so I don't I don't want to say the word is I don't want to mean it's more structural, I guess. And then you go to something that's beauty, where you're really selling something that you can't necessarily see. So how did that evolution evolve for you? Like what was your timeline?

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Um it it is kind of an extreme question when you frame it that way, but it was sort of for us, I guess, a natural progression because architecture is a design field where you you study scale, right? From the urban size down to like a doorknob. And I think the only thing that comes close to is probably industrial design when you think about it that way, is terms of scale. So the principles apply to everything.

TIffany Woolley 10:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

I to make the pivot wasn't crazy, no, but it was sort of the organic nature of it. We were chasing two projects in in New York, and actually when we started the agency, most of our clients were either architects or engineers, or furniture companies, or furniture companies or somebody in the industry because they knew that we could top their talk.

TIffany Woolley 11:10

Yeah. Um I'm sure it was a nice way to rely on Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

And I don't know if you're familiar with a brand called Vitra. No, but they uh they're in a European contract manufacturer or product manufacturing company. They have all the rights to Eams stuff in your classics, right? Yeah, we really wanted to work with them, and it became clear that we were not going to be able to until we had an office in New York. So we had a small space, we called them up, we're in New York, they're like, okay, let's get started. So it happened.

TIffany Woolley 11:45

Isn't that crazy where perception is that important, right? Needed that address.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Yeah, it's counting. And then and then, like you were saying, the SA Lauder thing, the woman who you know was had and the former Duty editor of Instile magazine, and she knew some people, and you know, you sort of network your way around, and that's how Save Lauder started, and then that put us in the beauty. You know, I got a cold call out of the blue from Diptique, their e-com director. Which is a huge their first e-comm, real e-com sites, and did your global digital for eight years or so.

Breaking Into Beauty With Estée Lauder

SPEAKER_05 12:25

And then while we were doing diptique, um somebody at Shalatubury had seen what went happened with the tea, and then we got a cone called from then.

TIffany Woolley 12:36

So basically, you were off and running for sure.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

You were yeah, and that really put us in beauty, and beauty's, like I said, been our sweet spot for 15 plus years.

TIffany Woolley 12:48

So, what was the most surprising, you know, aspect to getting into this beauty category? You know, I noticed the photography and doing some of my own homework to discuss with you both today, like the simplicity in highlighting a product versus all the you know, all the other elements fascinated me. Like how you really have to, you know, have a goal.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

Well, I would say when we started in beauty, um the companies wanted to like let's take Charlotte Tilbury, for example. She just had her own path, didn't care what anyone else was doing around her, what her competitors had a vision. Um and we loved it, and they were so organized and just amazing to work with. But now we feel everybody wants to copy everybody, whoever is successful, then it it's sort of this me to generation of companies that are not. Why would you want to look like somebody else, like a competition? We beat your own drum.

TIffany Woolley 14:10

Yes, we agree. And that's you know part of why we have even started the iDesign podcast. Because in our background, you know, you have some of these cookie cutter home projects coming up for developers. And I'm if I approach things the same way. Like you need to stand out, separate. You don't want to just blend in.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Yeah. But I would say too that back when it was Charlotte and Diptique, this was really the rise of e-com at that time. Social media wasn't really there yet. Right. Like you had MySpace, right? So this whole saturation of influencers and all that stuff that happens today, which I think sort of exacerbates the situation with being a Me Too.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Wasn't wasn't there. So it was really, really focused on the brand and what brand made brands important. And I still think that applies. And a lot of our work today is helping brands understand who they really are at their core and what makes them different and unique and how they should be, you know, like she said, beating to that drumbeat rather than what everybody else is doing and trying to be like somebody else.

Scott Woolley 15:26

So is your main focus, has it really been helping a helping a brand develop their brand, or just or or developing the packaging after they've already kind of got a branding? Both.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Yeah. It depends on where they are in their sorted pro cycle. You know, if they're a young startup, then it's really getting that positioning and messaging worked out and then how that translates in the packaging and the web and sort of things like that.

SPEAKER_05 15:53

Marketing.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

And if for one of an established company, it's who maybe has lost their way, it's like trying to get them refocused and back on the right path.

Microsoft To Fragrance: The Pivot Explained

TIffany Woolley 16:02

So take take us through your process. So your pro so say you you got this cold call from Diptik, so which is a you know, I I'm very familiar with that brand, which is fragrance but candles and a lot of you know, home fragrance. You get that call. What does your process look like? Like compare, I'm comparing it to my process. What is that initial meeting, that intake, and what are the steps that go forward to bringing it to launch?

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Um, Dipt is is a let me just put it this way. Uh a lot of times when you talk to a brand like that, the the first thing you do is kind of look at their website and or they're talking about it. But nine times out of ten, they have a messaging problem. What they're saying and what they're portraying do not connect. And it's, you know, I get it. Uh it's very hard, especially for our founder brands, uh, for founders to get what's in their head out on on paper. Right.

TIffany Woolley 17:07

Translate.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Yeah. And it's the same thing with I remember from your perception, probably where you are too. People have a vision of what their house wants to look like or something, but trying to get that out of their head and on the paper, yeah. It's a real skill, right?

TIffany Woolley 17:20

It is. And I love and appreciate when they do rely on experts to carry out that vision.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Yeah. So a lot of times it starts with that conversation about who they are and what they're saying, and then uh where they need to go from it. And often they have particular needs anyhow, they when they when they call you.

TIffany Woolley 17:39

And how long does that process take for you to kind of come up with that next layer of vision and translation of their founder vision?

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Uh it it takes um several couple weeks actually, three, four weeks, uh, typically. It's in the beginning, it and it actually kind of came out of the fact that all these companies were coming to us and you can look at it and say like they all have the same problem. So we started building a methodology around how to how to solve that.

TIffany Woolley 18:12

So is that interesting about it? No, go ahead. No, go finish.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

No, I was just saying what's interesting about it today is how we augment that process with AI to really do the research and find the patterns, and then we use our experience and our our intellect to figure out what the signals in that pattern. And and that's interesting now, because the amount of data that's out there and how you can use it to synthesize and understand, which just gives us more time to focus on the creative side of it and and really what it means to the brand instead of dedicating you know a month to deep market research, which is honestly not going to talk to even a fraction of the entire market of the brand, really, right? So uh it that's that's kind of where it's going right now.

TIffany Woolley 19:01

So interesting. So is this where your principles form, follows, function was kind of born?

SPEAKER_03 19:10

No, that was formed uh way back in architecture school and learn about the Bauhaus and Mies and all those guys, right? But uh it's always just been the sort of that and less is more. It's always just been two of the sort of uh things we we live by.

TIffany Woolley 19:28

Uh so I noticed that in the photography for the products, and in, you know, as we're even having this conversation, I'm thinking, you know, as my design process is bringing multiple things to a single vision. And you're kind of taking singular things and bringing it to a wider vision.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

That's fair to say. Uh often if it's a product or a new product, then if it's all about that product, right? If if it's about the brand and maybe it's looking at the whole line of products and everything. Um The product photography really came out of the fact that it was we were just amazed we'd ask brands for their assets and they would not either have none or what they had were just so awful or off the off the mark. And it was like, how about if we start to shoot this and and you know, do it that way? And that was great because it actually really, I think, helps our creative be a bit stronger because everything aligns that, you know, the the aesthetic that's set visually, you go graphically control. Photography. Yeah, yeah.

Brand Differentiation Over Me Too Trends

TIffany Woolley 20:36

So take us through the photography process of a lipstick.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Of a lipstick.

Scott Woolley 20:43

Well, well, but before you do that, did you have a photography background?

SPEAKER_03 20:50

I had yeah, I had been fascinated with it since I was in high school, and I was done the I was a photographer, like the shot for the high school newspaper. And my dream at that point was I wanted to street for National Geographic, and then I got an architecture and didn't there was no time to pick up the camera. Um I picked it back up when we lived in Europe. And then I put it back away when we were trying to build a company, and then this thing happened where it's like, let's we need to start shooting. So I got it back out and um And my way off full studio.

Scott Woolley 21:24

Yeah, because it seems to have become a very big facet of what you do from a creative standpoint for brands, the photography that you're bringing to the table for these brands. I mean, yeah, that alone is like a another, you know, uh creative business and design business that you've really mastered.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

And it's definitely another business. Uh and it's a business now which I think is being heavily impacted by AI.

SPEAKER_05 21:51

It is.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

Yeah, but and I can understand it in a good way.

SPEAKER_05 21:59

And how do you feel?

SPEAKER_03 22:09

It's a tool.

TIffany Woolley 22:10

I agree.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

And it's not going to do anything for you. You've got to understand how to use it.

SPEAKER_05 22:16

How lining works.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Yep. Right. And how texture and specularity and all that sort of stuff goes together to make something have a form and a shape.

TIffany Woolley 22:26

And I noticed that so much in your photography, because like I said, you take a single item and yet there is so many different facets that you can focus on in that photography that really speaks to the quality of the item.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

Yeah, and I think when you look at my products, they're like little, they're like little buildings, you know?

TIffany Woolley 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

You kind of look at it like it's the same thing. Like how you the way you light a space or building architecture is a building.

TIffany Woolley 22:56

It's fascinating to me. That like it's like so much focus is taken in something so miniature.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Because even if it's small, it's still got material. It's got color.

TIffany Woolley 23:09

It has facets.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

It's got a form, a shape. So light is going to help define God. So what you're trying to achieve is to make that object feel three-dimensional in a two-dimensional space.

TIffany Woolley 23:23

So as this photography component has taken on such importance in your creative work, is there a particular campaign that you're obviously a lot of these names are big names that we are speaking of. Is there a like a favorite one that really just, you know, tell us about that one?

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Yeah, Bring the Bouchard. We worked on a fragrance brand called Bouchard Colbert. Beautiful fragrances. Uh they're all inspired by music or operas.

TIffany Woolley 23:57

Oh, how cool is that.

Process: Positioning, Messaging, And AI Research

SPEAKER_03 23:59

And so if you look at the photography, each each one, like there's Knife Thrower and there's Lulu, and there's different ones. But what's interesting about it is they have their own opera story to it. So the photography is really about trying to pull each of those stories out and how that played into the bigger branding of the packaging and everything, with each having its own illustrative world of personality. Yeah, personality. And it was a it was a moment where we had a lot of creative liberty where we could do what we wanted to do, and how to connect the photography to the the the graphic design and the the layouts and the illustration. And I think it's just a great example of what's possible.

Scott Woolley 24:47

What what's the what's the hardest part about the design process of you know not running into burnout or running out of ideas? Because you're dealing with so many different brands and so many different products.

SPEAKER_05 25:16

The hardest part I think is um to convince the owners, the client, the marketing team to take the chance. Take the chance and be different and be who they really need to be and not like somebody else. And the I mean our biggest frustration is when they don't listen. Yeah, and we actually had to we have never done this before. Well, a few years back we were working with uh uh startup company, and they would not listen to us, they wanted to be exactly like the direct competitor. You can't do that, and sure enough, I mean we gave her everything that we uh had done, and we said we can't we we don't want you to fail, but I think we can find somebody else.

Scott Woolley 26:17

Were you able to overcome that? Were you able to pitch them to be open-minded?

SPEAKER_05 26:24

Well, it's a very tough decision to make, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

But it's only we've only wanted away maybe twice in all these.

SPEAKER_05 26:32

But the brat actually failed. They're not around anymore because they were doing exactly what the competition was doing. Exactly. I mean, really everything.

Scott Woolley 26:43

Same color palette. One part of your business is about the creative process, you know, and creating and coming up with the ideas and the design. But then there's the other aspect of the business that you now have created all these ideas or the branding, but you've got to pitch it and sell it where the client's going to believe in it.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

So the trick to that is, and I think you can relate to this too, you you're you're as much a designer as you are a therapist.

TIffany Woolley 27:11

Oh, totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

And and a lot of hand holder. Yeah. But just but what's the secret, right? It's listening. It is and understanding where their pain points are and what keeps them up at night. And then you rationalize against that. So you were saying that da-da-da-da happens. So this solves that problem directly because of this, this, and this. They can't refute that often because they said it themselves, right? Right. Right. Um, but obviously getting to that point can be can be tricky, especially when they we always joke that there's two types of clients, right? Those who know what they want but not what they need, and those who know what they need and not what they want.

SPEAKER_04 27:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

And the first step is figuring that out. Uh there's a third type too, the ones who don't pay.

SPEAKER_05 28:01

But which leads- Well, it's actually it's actually, I hate to say this, but the wealthier the people behind the company are they literally it's become more a problem. Yeah.

TIffany Woolley 28:17

They do, they want more copy control. I would that was like kind of leading me to like, as creative directors, how do you protect the integrity of these concepts while collaborating?

SPEAKER_03 28:31

Well, we often uh you always give them what they want and then you give them what they need. Or like what you think they need. Right.

TIffany Woolley 28:40

Which is why they are coming to you in the first place.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Yeah. And then often it it ends up that they, okay, you that makes sense. I get it now, and they go with what you're talking about.

TIffany Woolley 28:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

If you just I think in the beginning we were naive and we would just like, you have to do it like this, you know, and I'd be like, huh?

TIffany Woolley 28:57

You know, and you're you didn't realize the finesse that had to come along with that pitch.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

And that's just part of learning and growing, you know, just understanding that part.

Product Photography As Brand Architecture

TIffany Woolley 29:08

It really is. It is. I always say in the beginning of my meetings when I'm presenting, I said, I'm here to plant seeds. I want you to listen, take it in. You brought me in to bring you a fresh perspective, a new vision, and we'll get to the same end result, but just hear my thoughts. And they do eventually always come back to the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

That's exactly it. Yeah. 100%.

TIffany Woolley 29:36

Yeah. The creative process, right? So as a couple, how do you balance in your collaboration and your roles in the took us a long time to figure out. Probably still figuring it out as Scott and I. Yeah.

Scott Woolley 29:58

So is one of you more creative in one more business, or you both do it the same?

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Or uh She does art direction, I do creative direction. That's how it starts. Well, and what's more strategic? Now it's just to be me more strategic, and she does more of the creative.

Scott Woolley 30:16

So and who does most of the pitching when you've the creative is all done? Now you've got to pitch it and sell it to the client. Is that collaborative? What's that?

SPEAKER_03 30:27

Bradley. It's me, but it's it's collaborative to a degree. Okay. It's just, I mean, honestly, it depends on the client and the project and what's happening, right? Nothing's you know, that's the thing about the creative world, right?

TIffany Woolley 30:41

You have to be fluid, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

You have to it's always different. And that's what I think we both really love about it. Is we don't get up every day doing the same thing.

TIffany Woolley 30:49

Same thing. I yeah, each project is always unique.

Scott Woolley 30:52

Yeah.

TIffany Woolley 30:53

The experience. And it makes it fun. Agreed.

Scott Woolley 30:56

Are there any particular projects that you really get excited about or more excited about?

SPEAKER_05 31:03

Packaging is the most fun for us because we're ITX. So we can especially when we do, um, we just launched, well, primary packaging designing the actual bottle or whatever. Yeah. So if it's a bottle where we have to design from scratch and not just take something that is already made.

Scott Woolley 31:25

So you're designing bottles.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Like we launched the lip gloss line back in November. Um, the packaging is 100% custom.

TIffany Woolley 31:34

That is so exciting. And I can't imagine where your architecture backgrounds collide with that. I mean, what a process.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Yeah, it's fun. Because like I said, they're like little buildings, you know.

TIffany Woolley 31:45

They are like little buildings. So do you actually create a prototype like with your hands, with paper? Are you just kind of like what's your ways?

SPEAKER_03 31:54

Yeah.

TIffany Woolley 31:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

And that's actually funny you bring that up because anybody who works for us, the first thing they get when they walk in the office is a notebook. And you have to draw.

TIffany Woolley 32:04

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Before you get on the computer. You have to sketch.

TIffany Woolley 32:09

I know. I actually like one somewhere on one of the podcasts, they said something about doodling is part of like the creative process, too. Like doodling is is a sure sign of somebody who's got that creative.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

But it's funny, like, you know, young kids who work with us, they come out of school, like they're not.

TIffany Woolley 32:28

They don't have paper and pencils. I know.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

No, and they they just get around the computer and they spend all this time going in circles. Like, start out sketching first, and then you'll see it.

SPEAKER_05 32:38

And a lot of times if we're trying out new forms, I'm I mean, all uh it's not their fault, but it's more the schools have stopped to teach them not to cut things out. So for the past Like how to cut things out. When I say sex to knife, they look at me like, what is that?

Scott Woolley 33:02

Well, it's really the hand draw. The hand drawing is really a dying art.

TIffany Woolley 33:06

It's and I think they're so beautiful. I still love you know presenting with a hand drawing. I still feel like that sets a story that computers just can't, you know, the render.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

I just think it's more efficient too.

TIffany Woolley 33:22

If you have a sketch you've done than to go on the computer, you've you've always connection to it, I believe, too, which is, you know, I'm sure uh something that really sets you guys apart as well.

Scott Woolley 33:35

So you've designed and you've you've you've designed and branded for a lot of iconic and and big names. Is there a brand out there that you wish you could have rebranded because you felt the branding didn't hit the mark? Or you could have would have loved to have seen it done differently. Have you ever thought about that?

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:54

I would think a lot.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

I couldn't name one now.

SPEAKER_05 34:01

Which one? The Mary No. It's on our list.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

There's tell me it on their list.

SPEAKER_05 34:09

No, the first one.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

Oh, Laura Geller.

SPEAKER_05 34:12

Yeah.

Favorite Campaigns And Creative Freedom

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Um graph. Yeah. There's so many iconically great brands that have, you know, they they have little troubles here and there, like all of them, but I just feel like sometimes they end up they end up in the same do-it-again machine, you know? And I think it really has to do with social media and that's all they pay attention to. Right. And they're not looking at like legacy. It's all about the temporal nature of social. It's all disposable.

TIffany Woolley 34:45

It's all disposable.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

But the brand isn't or shouldn't be, right? So how do you move beyond that so that you're building something that that has longevity? And I I think it like I sorry to say it again, that it comes back to being true to who you are as a brand and not trying to be like everybody else.

TIffany Woolley 35:05

Yeah. So that's a lot of conversations, I would think, with the founders, really, too.

SPEAKER_03 35:12

Yeah, but I mean that's all predicated by having a great product, right? Or great formulations. If you're if if the product isn't there, then there's no point doing anything else.

TIffany Woolley 35:22

And have you ever had to say like this product just isn't for us?

SPEAKER_03 35:28

Yeah. Yeah, suddenly when you say it, a lot of times they know it already and they're just looking for that value. Then it's like, but look, it's not the end of the world, you can reformulate.

Scott Woolley 35:37

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

And maybe if you reformulate, you can save some money. Maybe there's newer technology out there that you can use uh for better delivery systems or whatever, or for absorption, or who knows?

TIffany Woolley 35:48

But it's uh it's so interesting to me now, you know, as it would like your career taking on this element to path to beauty, because I'm absolutely flabbergasted at the amount of beauty products available. And everybody has a beauty line. Everyone's it's it's becoming so saturated, which obviously I'm sure you're very aware of. And you know, part of this branding is really highlighting a special product where some of these brands today are highlighting a person.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

Yeah. I mean, look at celebrity brands, by and large, there's that's just an endorsement.

TIffany Woolley 36:35

I mean, every housewife has a lip gloss. It's like, you know, uh it just it's it's such a fascinating market.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

But it's like I I think I would argue it's like a lot of things. You know, the parallel would be food.

TIffany Woolley 36:53

Right. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

Everybody can cook. Some people can cook better than others, and some chefs are like rock star great chefs, and they're like the really great beauty brands or beauty formulators, right? They're or perfumers or whatever.

TIffany Woolley 37:07

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

You've there's different levels of beauty.

TIffany Woolley 37:12

Yeah, that makes total sense.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

But to your point, there is no doubt uh a ridiculous amount of beauty products now.

SPEAKER_05 37:19

And and a lot of them aren't formulated actually the same. Like if you start to look at the ingredients, I'm sure. They're all the same. I'm sure they're not.

TIffany Woolley 37:28

So they get to say based formulas. And then it just comes back to packaging. Right? And the story. And I am blown away by the creative process to like how much you guys do get involved, where these brands do have like the branding trips, they have the branding giveaways, they have are you involved in all of that?

SPEAKER_03 37:54

It depends on where we what we're doing. Sometimes we do marketing. Um marketing on our favorite thing to do.

TIffany Woolley 38:04

Right. You like to really focus and hone in on the product.

Selling Ideas: Therapy, Listening, And Risk

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Well, I think especially with beauty, and especially with skincare, that needs to be driven in-house because people have concerns and questions and things that they need to be speaking straight to the brand. It's right, and so but uh we help with marketing. We do a lot of marketing for brands, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 38:28

I mean, when we talk marketing, it's more like digital, digital, digital ads, email campaigns, website, websites, website memions. Um but we feel like Bradley was saying, if you're running social, especially if it's skincare and if it's a skincare line that is built around special concerns, they have to do the social media or at least have a team in-house that can get back to the clients if something happens, if they have an outbreak or question or question. Um they need to have that. And same thing with supplements, I feel um that's a very personal thing. Yeah.

TIffany Woolley 39:17

Yeah. So when you what's one of the projects that you're working on right now that you could share that maybe hasn't been launched yet?

SPEAKER_03 39:34

But but the one uh but there's a lot of interesting things happening.

SPEAKER_05 39:40

Yeah, the the we lot the lip glosses uh we launched with uh with our client in Monaco, they're coming out with a few more products um that are all related to makeup or I wouldn't say skincare quite yet.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Yeah, and we're working on uh the Irish brand that's doing a uh we're trying to pioneer home wellness with them, develop a category around home wellness, which is an interesting concept, I think.

TIffany Woolley 40:16

I was like, yes, tell us more about that concept.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

I don't know if I want to.

SPEAKER_05 40:24

Um, that's the reason why we can't we we have signed NDAs.

TIffany Woolley 40:30

Right, I understand. I understand.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

Yeah. For young designers. But there's all kinds of interesting things.

Scott Woolley 40:39

So for a young designer who's looking to break into this industry, who's going, you know, and learning, what advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_05 40:48

Go to a print shop to begin with, smile the turpentine, and see how printing works. That's another thing that a lot of especially if you're if the designer is interested in doing packaging, they need to see how it all goes together, how prototypes are made, how printing works, to understand that no, I can't just do it all on a computer. I have to get my hands dirty. Yeah, I have to build it. Another thing, yeah, and another thing is actually what I feel is lacking is the understanding of typography and setting type, how to create hierarchy when you're writing something or when you're putting it on a packaging. There are so many packages I see right now, but there is absolutely no hierarchy. Everything is set in the same way.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

And your eye doesn't know what to add, and your eye just goes in circles.

SPEAKER_05 41:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Because they don't teach it, they don't teach typography in school anymore.

Scott Woolley 41:56

Um which is extremely important from a standpoint when a product goes on a shelf in retail and the consumer's walking and it's uh it's like it's it's a lip balm section, and there's 15 different products, you know, what's your eyes going to get drawn to first? Which one is the consumer gonna stop and just because of how the packaging is done?

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Exactly.

Scott Woolley 42:23

And like you're saying, the hierarchy of the of the font size and the style you know, drawing the phone.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Yeah, then once you uh and then once it gets your attention and you pick it up, then the readability of like understanding what makes this product great.

Scott Woolley 42:38

So have you, as designers and do and packaging and so forth, because I've done this in some products that I've been involved in, where I basically spent time, you know, in a drugstore watching retail, you know, consumers go up to it and asking them why did you pick that? Yeah. What made you pick that? Why did you pick a brever over the nine other cold store products that were on the shelf?

Roles, Pitching, And Team Dynamics

SPEAKER_03 43:05

Yeah. No, it's funny. We were having a conversation the other day with a woman who we work with who does market research and we were talking about AI and how it does it impact her business and what ways or the butt what you realize is it can't do is it cannot do behavior, behavioral analytics, right? You you need still to be there and talk to people. Like, why did you do that? I can't do that.

Scott Woolley 43:30

Yeah. So I but I kind of feel that's old school. That's something that I don't think they teach in school today. Um and they're putting an emphasis on that.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Now, I mean, I think what's uh I think the part of that has changed. I remember back in a day when you used to take you know a concept boards and you would ask random people, what do you think of it? Would you pick concept one or two, right? I don't think that exists so much anymore just because you you can test that so quickly just on social media.

Scott Woolley 43:59

Right. So do you with with any of your concepts, do you ever do focus groups internally or externally to help you?

SPEAKER_03 44:08

That's what I'm saying. Not nearly like we used to, just because you can test so much of it just on social now. But right to what you were saying, that's a whole different thing about consumer behavior and why did you pick that product and not this one? Or that's interesting. And I don't think that will change ever because that's just human behavior.

Scott Woolley 44:29

Yeah. Well, I I've I've done a fair amount of that myself and and realized how important it is. Um, you know, how a consumer just walking up in that first few seconds, how their eye is drawn to a particular product and why, and then asking people.

SPEAKER_05 44:49

Yeah. But a lot of it is also driven by social media now. Um we my niece, who lives in Iceland, lived with us for seven weeks here in New York, and one uh evening we opened up the refrigerator and we saw all these weird products in there. And we're like, where did you get that from and why did you buy it? And it was all because of she was on TikTok.

TIffany Woolley 45:18

No, no, it was TikTok. And she collected post. Yes. I know we're planning our spring break trip, and my kids, you know, my husband's thinking, you know, what are where some of the sites you want to go see? Where do you want to explore? And they come back with the top TikTok, you know, stops. It it definitely is that new generation. You know, TikTok is 100% there.

SPEAKER_03 45:44

It's funny. Yeah.

TIffany Woolley 45:45

It really is.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

You know, it's it's it's totally But you know, that's a that's okay, I think, because that, you know, it's when you're talking about something you eat or put on your skin that does some who how do you know this kid knows what he's even talking about in the first place?

TIffany Woolley 45:59

Isn't that the truth?

SPEAKER_03 46:01

That's a different story. Whether or not it's uh, you know, some guy's five-second clip of looking at the pyramids of Giza, okay, fine. Not gonna hurt you. But it's very different when uh you're talking about something that has a health official health benefit.

TIffany Woolley 46:16

Right. Yeah. So do your campaigns speak to that sometimes too, you know, highlighting, you know.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

Yes, uh people we're trying to get away from is trying to say everything at the brands all want to say the same thing. We're clean, we're green, we're you know, but what does that mean today?

TIffany Woolley 46:37

Right. It's so true.

SPEAKER_03 46:38

And it doesn't separate you anymore because everybody says it now.

TIffany Woolley 46:42

Right. Yep.

Designing Custom Packaging Like Little Buildings

SPEAKER_03 46:44

You know what I mean? It's like table stakes keep changing and good, because you shouldn't have to keep saying the same things over and over and over. The society should catch up and realize that it's better that things are are good for the environment, that they're vegan, that they're not being tested on animals. All that stuff should just be a a given.

TIffany Woolley 47:04

A given. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Yeah.

TIffany Woolley 47:08

I I hear you.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

But it's amazing how many don't, and they still laid out their main messaging. Meanwhile, they're on you know, three patents for this, baby, or the other thing that they don't talk about except on the third page at the bottom of the about page. That's your differentiator, and you've buried it. Yeah, it's funny.

TIffany Woolley 47:26

So are you part of a brand mainly for a certain campaign, or are you there for like the long haul?

SPEAKER_03 47:35

The long haul. Yeah.

TIffany Woolley 47:37

Yeah, that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

It's a lot more fun.

TIffany Woolley 47:41

Yeah, it's more intentional.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

Because you grow with the brand and you you things come up, opportunities come up, problems come up, and you just solve them or you take advantage of them.

TIffany Woolley 47:54

Well, something like obviously I love Charlotte Tilbury myself and traveling, I, you know, and shopping in other countries and places. Her her actual like boutiques are like just eye candy, especially with my background. Are you part of those meetings and collaborations as well, or strictly just product and the packaging?

SPEAKER_05 48:19

Well, we were in the company once it did the one, the first one on Common Guard.

SPEAKER_03 48:24

Yeah, but she has a team, good design team who does her retail work.

SPEAKER_05 48:28

But yeah, but we were always involved.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

Yeah. You know, it started when we worked with her, it was in the very, very beginning. She was 35 people or something, you know, it was and we did their first e-comm site, and she hadn't opened the store yet and Covent Garden. She was just going to do that. But along this doesn't happen in the months that it took that we did for the start.

SPEAKER_05 48:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:54

So we created like on the website this thing called Charlotte's World, which was like behind the curtain where you really understand who she was as a makeup artist and her career. And I think some of that ended up did translating into the the downstairs part of that where it was more the bourgeois kind of cruel feel. But she's one of those people though who's wonderful because she had a very clear vision about what she was about. And she is exactly who she is, yeah. When you meet her in person, which you see in our to her success for sure.

TIffany Woolley 49:26

I mean, without a doubt. She's the real deal. Yeah. And that is yeah, and there was no bullshit.

SPEAKER_05 49:32

I mean, it's just straight on. I love that.

TIffany Woolley 49:36

So you've intentionally kept your agency small. How have you seen that as a benefit?

SPEAKER_05 49:44

We turn things around really quickly. Oh. Yeah, there's no hierarchy. We're all in it together. We're all get our hands dirty, and uh everybody is everybody's the e-team.

TIffany Woolley 49:59

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

There was a well, we were much larger. We had four or five folks.

TIffany Woolley 50:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

And then we after actually the pandemic solidified a lot of it because we realized like it cut out the fat. We do all this ourselves faster and maybe even gutter. I don't know how to do that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you've got to have a team, you know, and it and the team's gotta be on the same page. And we were very conscious about keeping everybody involved on everything. Yeah, we do that. Even though one person may take us a lead on it just to be the day-to-day. But uh, because everybody's gonna look at it slightly differently, or somebody may be home having epiphany while they're in a shower. And yes. You come back, I'm like, wow, that's a great idea. We should have we should do that, you know. So I think it just works better. And I think clients appreciate it too when they realize they've hired a team, yeah.

Scott Woolley 50:55

Right.

SPEAKER_03 50:56

And not a bunch of project managers and you know, one principal who's half in and half out, and stuff like that.

Scott Woolley 51:03

But your brand is your last name. So do most people come in and only want to meet with one or the both of you?

Sketch First: Craft, Typography, And Print

SPEAKER_03 51:11

No, we have no choice. That was probably the most creative thing we ever did, was naming our company. Awful.

Scott Woolley 51:25

Yeah. Yeah, Tiffany ran into a situation when she started her company. It was Tiffany Woolley Interiors, but and every person that came in the in the front door only wanted to meet and talk to her on their home. And it got to the point where there was no way she could handle every single home by herself when she had a team. So I said to her, You got to change the name of the company, and we shortened it to TW Interiors to overcome that.

SPEAKER_03 51:52

That was true. Um and that's the you know, that's the difference too. Like our projects, and that's the thing I think in architecture that drove us both a little bit crazy, it's just how much time a project takes. Right?

Scott Woolley 52:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:05

Yeah.

Scott Woolley 52:06

Which a lot of clients don't understand, don't realize, or understand that.

TIffany Woolley 52:09

The details.

SPEAKER_03 52:10

Especially if you're doing full construction, right? Right.

TIffany Woolley 52:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:13

The details or a big uh, you know, big remodel, it it takes a lot of time.

Scott Woolley 52:19

Well, and most almost in almost every project we do now, everything after the architect, you know, the architectural, the layouts, all the elevations are done, everything is done, you know, in 3D. So it's photorealistic, you know, of every room and you know, every wall. And people don't realize, you know, how long that takes. And then you got clients that come back saying, okay, I want to change these two chairs and this table and that lamp and that light fixture and that rug. And can you re-render it all? They think, well, can I see it tomorrow? No. That's not good.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

Yeah, but you're doing it on the computer, why not? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:03

That's crazy. We have gotten these requests. Actually, one time a client was in the office. We had a meeting, and she wanted some changes, and she said, Oh, I'll just wait here until you're done. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Scott Woolley 53:19

Yeah, yeah. Bring your sleeping. We understand, we we understand that.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

Squeezy. Yeah. But I mean, this is the interesting point you bring up because sometimes I feel like when clients don't understand process, especially like manufacturing, you know, package, there's there's physical constraints to it. Right. Yeah. And even printing. Like that takes a certain amount of time for the ink to dry. You can't speed that up, or you know, you can only do 33,000 pieces a day and assemble them. That's just what's humanly possible. And they they refuse to believe that, and it can be kind of annoying sometimes.

Scott Woolley 54:01

And I'm gonna guess, um, based on our experience, that you can't just go to uh one printer for every single thing that you're doing. There's certain printers can handle certain types of packaging, you know. And you know, we're in the we have a tequila brand, and there's really for us, there's only been one printer in in my in Massachusetts that would do uh printing for our boxes and and labels and so forth. Really the boxes, but with the labels, it's a different printer.

SPEAKER_03 54:32

Yeah, yeah. They have specialties. I just like one guy we use when we do letterpress and his his he's he's he's a god when it comes to letterpress. He's so so good at it. Yeah, you don't have to explain it. He'll tell you wherever what needs to happen. Like it's great. And we have other printers who are that way for you know, just big run printing things.

SPEAKER_05 54:56

Or somebody who creates the you know, um cosmetic brunts, you have to have like stickers and labels that are often under the product boxes. That's all he does. Right.

TIffany Woolley 55:09

I know everybody has their niche.

Scott Woolley 55:11

Yeah, but it's it's the knowledge, it's that knowledge that you have of where to go for the right printing and the and to get it done right, which is a value that I think sometimes clients don't realize and understand as well that you're bringing No, because often, often, as you guys know too, they look at the bottom line.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

Well, he's more expensive.

TIffany Woolley 55:32

Right. Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

Yeah, he is more expensive for for a reason because he's gonna also know what has to happen from a regulatory point of view. And you know, go with your guy if you want, and you're gonna end up what happens, you know?

TIffany Woolley 55:45

Yeah, you'll pay for it twice. Yeah. Yeah. He'll be back.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

Yeah.

TIffany Woolley 55:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:50

It can be really frustrating sometimes.

Shelf Behavior, Social Proof, And Testing

TIffany Woolley 55:52

I know. Well, you two have a beautiful creative process, and I'm so amazed at your story of where architecture has brought you not only in your relationship, but your beautiful brand and now this niche of your cosmetic work and moving into Photography. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:12

Yeah, thank you.

TIffany Woolley 56:14

So thank you so much for sharing your journey, your design journey. You both epitomize everything that we want the world to hear.

Scott Woolley 56:23

Awesome. Continue for having success in what you're doing as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 56:28

Thank you. Thank you.

Scott Woolley 56:30

Thanks for joining us on the iDesign Lab today. Thanks.

Voice Over 56:34

Thank you for allowing us. iDesign Labs Podcast is an SW group production in association with the Five Star and TW Interiors. To learn more about iDesign Lab or TW Interiors, please visit TWInteriors.com.